Add Reply
New Topic
New Poll
- General Discussion
- Fan Travel
- About this Website & Forums
- League-wide (AA)
- El Paso Diablos
- Fort Worth Cats
- Grand Prairie AirHogs
- Lincoln Saltdogs
- Pensacola Pelicans
- St. Paul Saints
- Shreveport-Bossier Captains
- Sioux City Explorers
- Sioux Falls Canaries
- Wichita Wingnuts
- Former AA Clubs
- League-wide (NoL)
- Fargo-Moorhead RedHawks
- Gary SouthShore RailCats
- Joliet Jackhammers
- Kansas City T-Bones
- Lake County Fielders
- Rockford Riverhawks
- Schaumburg Flyers
- Winnipeg Goldeyes
- Former NoL Teams
- Calgary Vipers
- Edmonton Capitals / Cracker-Cats
- General
- Bobbleheads
- Books & Media Guides
- Cards & Card Sets
- Schedules
"SImmerin' Simmy"
| Author | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
 goldeyesalltheway |
"SImmerin' Simmy" |
Lead | |
|
Posts: 42 (10-May-08 05:32:34) |
|
||
|
HorseRaider |
|||
|
Posts: 211 (11-May-08 00:00:32) |
What's he talking about? Appears to me that the NL IS the one in trouble, not the AA.
I don't think it will take all of their owners sitting at a table with all of our owners. That's going to create nothing but a cluster of people arguing and that won't solve anything," professed Simunic. "I think you need to take two level heads from our side and two level heads from their side. If there are four level heads, get them to sit down and hash things out knowing that the rest of the owners from both sides are going to go along with what they come up with."I still don't know what he's getting at. Why does he feel like the NL and the AA must get together and talk about the future? My impression/translation: "My league (NL) is circling the drain and we need to get interleague play started ASAP with the AA to cut down on travel costs. Or have a complete merger of both leagues for our present six teams to survive." To reiterate, this guy makes it sound like there's this big war between both leagues going on when all it is is a voice of desperation (coming from Mr. Simunic) who is very afraid that the NL won't be together much longer. Just my .04 (.02 adjusted for inflation  )
|
||
|
nlfan |
|||
|
Posts: 5664 (11-May-08 08:52:45) |
First, Simi's more than simmering... he's boiling over. I can't believe his comments were spoken in "quiet" speech.
As for NoL and the AA, he's right, the AA is the best fit for the future of the NoL. Yes (h.r.) he's speaking (solely) about the NoL but he would... it's been his livelihood for the past 15+ years. And there has been a "war" between the leagues and the NoL originally had some of the highest levels of animosity (turning down offers of inter-league play). It doesn't help that he's been on both sides of the fence when it comes to the split and how to deal with it. When it comes to the actual impacts on travel costs I'm not entirely sure he has all the figures (that's what GMs handle). Like "real" fans, he actually cares about who the opponent is he faces each night. Whatever the case... sadly... I doubt that his opinions will have any significant impact. |
||
|
bigZ65 |
|||
|
Posts: 202 (13-May-08 06:34:12) |
The product has been getting steadily worse since the NL East experiment. The league (aka owners) tried to expand too far, too fast, and forgot what the
league was built on. Simunic is bang on, the NL is a shell of its former self.
|
||
|
Selanne |
|||
|
Posts: 52 (13-May-08 07:00:37) |
In my mind the NL is dead. It may limp on for a few years, but I hope that something can be worked out with the AA and the Frontier leagues to absorb the NL
teams.
I agree with Simunic that Wpg and Fargo will have to buy their way into the AA (he said this in the pregame interview with Paul Edmonds)- because at this point the AA does not really need the two franchises. Oh well, maybe that is the penalty the owners pay for chasing the Alberta dream (I wonder if the expansion fees they received will cover any future costs incurred joining a new league) - which will, of course, be passed on to the fans. |
||
|
JohnU11 |
|||
|
Posts: 228 (13-May-08 07:29:35) |
Just from my vantage point, 40,000 feet up, it doesn't seem like the AA would do itself much good by driving the NoL out of business.
The reason is that the dismantling of a league requires a rebuilding of what was left over if any of it is to be salvaged. The AA may have won this war, and so what? Indy ball has to survive under any terms that it can endure. 1. Offer a merger for 2009. 2. Agree that one is possible and start the public relations propaganda. 3. Start interleague play in 2010. 4. Complete the merger a year later. If a league goes out of business, the people who worked it will go find work elsewhere. Better to agree to agree than to continue to try to "win the war." The bulk of people who go to these games aren't interested in that sort of thing. We want to go see our local heroes play ball. |
||
|
nlfan |
|||
|
Posts: 5674 (13-May-08 10:07:46) |
If the NoL ever would go out of business the clubs will jump to other leagues.
|
||
|
JohnU11 |
|||
|
Posts: 229 (13-May-08 10:57:45) |
On the jumping, we agree.
But the issue is sort of in how it's spun. The appearance of a merger in the face of strength is better than one in the face of desperation. From an investment point of view, it looks better if ... say ... I want to shell out $1 million for naming rights at the ballpark for a team in a league that's growing instead of one that's looking for refugee status. Then, when does the fold occur? If it's early enough, new teams can be blended into a schedule. Can that happen between ... say, October and March and still work? When is the drop-dead time to readjust a whole league schedule? And, as I see it, KC, F-M and Winnipeg are likely to want to go to the AA if the NoL folds. That's three and it's either two, four or six. I could see the other three teams maybe negotiating downward to the FL. Again, three ... odd number. I am not the fly on the wall here, but if I were to have a buzz, I'd say somebody needs to have Plan B in place. The what-ifs are free. |
||
|
kckman |
What-ifs | ||
|
Posts: 165 (13-May-08 21:45:40) |
While we're all busy dreaming about it, here's a proposed layout for the newly merged/realigned 16-team, four-division North American Associated
League:
A: Fargo, Sioux City, Sioux Falls, Winnipeg B: Gary, Joliet, Schaumburg, St. Paul C: Kansas City, Lincoln, Shreveport, Wichita D: El Paso, Fort Worth, Grand Prairie, Pensacola They could name the divisions after deserving people (how about the Wayne Tewilliger Division, Bill? I'd suggest the Calvin Pickering Division, but we all know that story . . .;-) Of course, this assumes that everyone can make nice and bury the hatchet somewhere other than each others' backs. The biggest difficulty here will be in convincing the remaining NoL moguls that they need to accept that their way didn't work, and that being the king of your own swamp does not mean much when your castle keeps sinking into the mud. |
||
|
nlfan |
|||
|
Posts: 5678 (13-May-08 22:03:32) |
That's not a bad way to merge the 16 teams into one league. I hadn't really considered that the 10 AA and 6 NoL clubs would make the "Sweet
16" that would be a "complete" league.
Somehow I doubt it'll go that way. The (real) rumor that won't go away still makes me think that if the NoL phased out the Chicago clubs would go to the FL. |
||
|
kckman |
|||
|
Posts: 166 (13-May-08 22:27:27) |
I've heard that rumor as well, and it makes sense with the FL already having a team in the Chicago area (Crestwood, almost halfway between Joliet and
Gary), which means they'd have to add at least one more team (to get THEM up to 16), most likely KCK, which (assuming Fargo and Winnipeg migrate to the AA)
would still give the AA 12 teams, and leagues are easier to manage in multiples of four.
I'd rather see KCK end up in the Amalgamated AA/NL, although the FL already has two teams in the St. Louis area (in fact, the T-Bones just visited River City for an exhibition, so they've actually seen games against two other indy leagues this pre-season). One reason I'd like to see the merger is that the Ehlerts would have to go hat in hand to the same people they scorned when the league split two years ago,but that's a minor one. Really, which league they end up in is not nearly as important as the Ehlerts selling out to someone who could actually run an independent baseball team. But I digress. Or, to paraphrase (i.e., steal) a line from Mark Twain: "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you owned the T-Bones. But I repeat myself." |
||
|
JohnU11 |
|||
|
Posts: 232 (14-May-08 00:02:10) |
There really is no reason to drop the names of the leagues. You could simply shift two teams from the AA to the NL, much as happened when the old AFL and NFL
merged (three teams shifted to the AFC ... trivia ... who were they?)
You could still keep the AA and NoL names all under the "National Painful Bladder" label*. * see related thread. Again, I see movement toward a merger as a statement to baseball fans and potential corporate sponsors that it's a show of strength and vision toward growth, as opposed to one league hobbling around on a broken crutch. Right now, not many people are paying attention to this. If IF the NoL loses two more teams, that's a four-team intramural conference that's left over and ... guaranteed, there will be no season in 2009, save a handful of exhibitions. If you lose a year, as in the case of the Steel Yard, the rent and payments due would set the team back tremendously. A year without baseball in this level is at worst one bullet in the head. Maybe not fatal, but pretty damaging. |
||
|
nlfan |
|||
|
Posts: 5680 (14-May-08 03:20:41) |
Beyond the obvious point that it's more than a little premature to talk about merger, there would have to be some agreement on how a league is actually
run. The NoL has almost always been run by the owners. Both the FL and AA are the opposite with strong commissioners that are more than autographs stamped on
the baseballs. I don't think Miles or Bill (L.) wants to deal with 3-6 "Steinbrenner 'Wannabes'"
This extends to corporate sponsors. Efforts made in the past to work out league-wide deals were shot down by owners who had their own advertising deals and had no incentive to give them up and/or share those proceeds with other clubs. It's one of many headaches that Wolff left behind when he started his exit from the league in 2001. Any thought about using the NPBF name as umbrella to permit "merging" --or more correctly inter-league play-- still don't make much sense. Of course since the FL and NoL seem to be the only ones with the banners, maybe they're talking about something like it. Rehashing the ugly scenarios... If the NoL lost any more teams it would likely come apart with individual or groups of owners seeking new situations. KCK would beat a path to the AA or FL since the MiLB and Royals would likely never support a farm club so close to a mid-sized market. Given rumors that it was "Wichita or else" last year and discussions about Topeka, dreams of Kansas rivalries would seem to outweigh trips to Indiana. It's location has always been acceptable to the entire AA even if there are any lingering animosities. Amongst the Chicago clubs the FL is the real option (and rumor). About the only club where other options have been mentioned is Joliet where the rumors were about trying to get a MiLB franchise. Other than the (new) loss in franchise value (assuming there would be any other option) moving from NoL to FL, the owners would likely be happy to join up with Lee and cut travel and team payroll. About all they might want is a few more games to keep ticket sales at the same level. The Red River Twins would have little choice but the AA. The exception might be Winnipeg where Mayor Sam might work to buck the trend Canadian baseball running south, make more upgrades to the Fish Bowl and try shooting for double or triple A affiliation. Unlike 1993 when he last tried that, he has a good facility and not an end zone to house a club. The clubs would never go dormant. John's correct about Gary --and all the other clubs for that matter. They have to "join or die" and there's no reason for any of the remaining NoL to disappear entirely. |
||
|
kckman |
|||
|
Posts: 168 (14-May-08 04:43:50) |
Going with your scenario, we have the AA increasing to 13 teams and the FL to 15, making an expansion team a virtual necessity for both loops.
Topeka's a possibility for the AA, the FL already has teams near St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati, and Cleveland, so it will probably find another; at twelve teams, the FL is probably healthier than either the AA or NL. BTW, off-topic, but the CoBL is back this year, and it appears that all four teams have home parks. |
||
|
kckman |
|||
|
Posts: 169 (14-May-08 04:49:56) |
>> the old AFL and NFL merged (three teams shifted to the AFC ... trivia ... who were they?)
Too easy. Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Cleveland, though the latter two now represent Indianapolis and Baltimore, respectively. Okay, try this. As of 1901, there were eight teams in the National League (we're back to baseball now). Only two of them actually started life in the National League, while the other six all began as members of other leagues before moving to the NL. Which two teams have been members of the National League for more than a century, and have never been members of any other league? |
||
|
JohnU11 |
|||
|
Posts: 236 (14-May-08 05:03:12) |
Cubs and Giants, I believe.
|
||
|
bigZ65 |
|||
|
Posts: 203 (14-May-08 05:11:17) |
nlfan wrote: Sam doesn't have enough money for an AAA team, he'd have to get one of his developer buddies or a group of them and mismanage their money for that
to happen. Unlikely.
Selanne wrote: I think the AA would gladly take the Goldeyes and RedHawks as they would provide immense stability and credibility for the league as two of the leading
independent franchises around. There are still some shaky teams in that league, adding Winnipeg, Fargo and perhaps Kansas City would improve the value of the
AA and its opportunity to collect on future franchise fees.
|
||
|
kckman |
|||
|
Posts: 170 (14-May-08 06:08:45) |
JohnU11 wrote: Half right. The Giants began in 1883 in the National League, but the Cubs actually started life in 1874 in the National Association. It was after they
stole players away from the Boston team that their owner got the idea to start a new league in 1876 so he wouldn't be subject to the sanctions of the old.
|
||
|
JohnU11 |
|||
|
Posts: 238 (14-May-08 06:39:00) |
Looking this up would be too easy, I am not.
The other franchises Cincinnati (was in the AA for awhile) Pittsburgh Philadelphia St. Louis Boston (Milw, Atl) Brooklyn All I know is that the Cubs are the oldest charter members of the National League. So that would mean, what ... any team I choose has to have been a member of the NL and no other. Going with St. Louis. |
||
|
JohnU11 |
|||
|
Posts: 239 (14-May-08 06:40:40) |
this tends to be threadjacking so any more responses after this one and I would probably be inclined to build a new thread.
|
||
|
nlfan |
|||
|
Posts: 5682 (14-May-08 07:03:06) |
Yes... it's only marginally related to this topic. As long as it's baseball trivia I'm not too bothered, but...
Back on topic... I'll repeat this again... the AA South has no intention of driving to Winnipeg. Period. The AA has no compelling reason to "have" to take either club but would if it works for the league --the AA, not NoL. As suggested in the post above, it would be reasonable if the AA reached the ideal 16-team level which would allow 2 8-team divisions that would not need to play each other. In the short term, as long as the AA is at 10, 2 teams would work but... KCK is more likely to make it and that would be 13 --which doesn't really work. Add Topeka to make 14 and it would work again --but still isn't 16. A 14-team league could split into 6 and 8 team divisions or allow interleague. If interleague, the addition 4 clubs could allow for some reduced travel but 2 7-team divisions would make post season chanced go down quite a bit. The future really depends on how things go for the NoL this year. If things remain stable we may put the worst behind us. It's hard to say without more information from the heads of the league. I doubt we'll hear much until October unless Clark actually lands a new franchise or someone, like last year, leaks some plans. |
||
Add Reply
- General Discussion
- Fan Travel
- About this Website & Forums
- League-wide (AA)
- El Paso Diablos
- Fort Worth Cats
- Grand Prairie AirHogs
- Lincoln Saltdogs
- Pensacola Pelicans
- St. Paul Saints
- Shreveport-Bossier Captains
- Sioux City Explorers
- Sioux Falls Canaries
- Wichita Wingnuts
- Former AA Clubs
- League-wide (NoL)
- Fargo-Moorhead RedHawks
- Gary SouthShore RailCats
- Joliet Jackhammers
- Kansas City T-Bones
- Lake County Fielders
- Rockford Riverhawks
- Schaumburg Flyers
- Winnipeg Goldeyes
- Former NoL Teams
- Calgary Vipers
- Edmonton Capitals / Cracker-Cats
- General
- Bobbleheads
- Books & Media Guides
- Cards & Card Sets
- Schedules
