"SImmerin' Simmy"

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JohnU11		#21	[-]
Posts: 240 (14-May-08 07:14:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I do know that travel costs are a big issue but to be honest, the NoL showed some creative confusion last year in how it sent its teams around. Paying SOME attention to that could have helped. I think there was one stretch where Gary played in Joliet, then swung north to Fargo and then back to Schaumburg. I realize you can't make everything work like a Rolex, but the big issue is travel costs, it seems like the kingdom is in peril for the lack of a horse. The concern I'd have over travel is the effect is has on the players. But they are in a bus league and knew that when they signed. I do know there was one moment early last year when the Flyers had to make a run from KC to Gary, which had scheduled one of its school kids days ... and it started around 11 in the morning. The poor Flyers guys had been on the bus all night and during the process, their driver had run out of allowable road hours. To say the least, the game was less than competitive.
HorseRaider		#22	[-]
Posts: 215 (14-May-08 07:58:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Bill beat me to it. There's no way the AA wants to drive to Winnipeg, period. I'm being Captain Obvious too when I say KCK would be perfect for the AA and the Chicago area teams would be out as well as Winnipeg. That makes 13 teams. The AA has said they want 16 teams by 2011 (or by 2012, can't remember). Topeka? Colorado Springs rumor I keep hearing? Too bad they couldn't lure Amarillo from the UBL if that happened. Getting good support in the UBL, decent facility. Be a nice stopgap between El Paso and Colorado and FW/GP and Shreveport. But again, we've been down this road before haven't we with all our perfect little solutions. Something's going to have to give. Who knows if the huge fuel price increases will go on and on or not? John is right about the travel factor being a big deal. Simply increasing ticket prices to cover for the added costs won't work in the markets where teams are breaking even at best every season. Some of the smaller AA teams can't afford more than one trip north or south as it is already.
kckman		#23	[-]
Posts: 171 (14-May-08 08:40:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	>>But they are in a bus league and knew that when they signed. It's less what the players want as to what the teams (i.e., ownership) are willing to do, especially as gas prices continue to soar. That makes a 900-mile round trip for St. Paul with just two stops, Fargo and Winnipeg, if they were to join. But you are correct, John. The NoL sets up its schedule to make sure everyone gets an equitable distribution of weekends and weeknights, but they need to look at the cost of setting that up. Okay, final solution: FL and AA divide the NoL carcass, FL taking the Chicago teams, AA takes in KCK, both leagues add one expansion franchise, and the Red River twins just get cut loose. Let 'em see if the Golden League wants them. Just joking, but just. With the increasing price of fuel, Winnipeg and Fargo are getting further and further away. Maybe the AA could take in KCK, Winnipeg and Fargo and cut the five southern teams loose instead (drop to an eight-team league). Who knows? Certainly not I. >> I'm being Captain Obvious too when I say KCK would be perfect for the AA Only the location. Remember the Ehlerts were part of the problem that caused the AA teams to bolt. It's a good question whether KCK is desirable enough a location that they can overlook the negatives. What say you, Bill? Do you think the AA has enough controls in place to keep the Ehlerts on a leash this time? And very quickly, the trivia. Chicago is the oldest franchise in the NL that has been continuously in the same city, but is not the oldest franchise per se. The Braves go back to the Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871. Joined the NL in 1876 The Cubs go back to the Chicago White Stockings (NA) 1874. Joined the NL in 1876. The Giants were originally the New York Gothams (NL) 1883. Always in the NL The Phillies were originally the Philadelphia Quakers (NL) 1883. Ditto. The Pirates were originally Allegheny (AA) 1882. Joined the NL in 1887. The Reds were the Cinicinnati Red Stockings (AA) 1882. Joined the NL in 1890. The Dodgers were originally the Brooklyn Trolley Dodgers (AA) 1884. Joined the NL in 1890. The Cardinals were originally the St. Louis Brown Stockings (AA) 1882. Joined the NL in 1892. Sounds a lot like the AA/NoL evolution, doesn't it? >>unless Clark actually lands a new franchise I'm not holding my breath. I do not envy him his job. My guess is that he has a Sisyphean task ahead of him trying to convince a potential investor that the NoL is a better bet than either the FL or AA, or even that it will last past the next two seasons. Besides, Clark needs to land TWO franchises. You know, if the FL does lure the Chicago-area teams, that will mean that what was once the Northern League will be scattered among three different leagues, four if you count the Can-Am.
Zeyes		#24	[-]
Posts: 33 (14-May-08 19:49:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	There's always the possibility of getting creative with the scheduling such that some matchups with extreme distances are simply left out. As an example from the affiliated leagues (this is from 2006, I haven't checked if they're still doing it): The Sally League is also stretched quite a long way in the North-South direction, and while it technically has two divisions with eight teams each, for scheduling purposes it really has four sub-divisions of four teams each, roughly split along that North-South axis, so it looks like this: Northern Division-North Northern Division-South ---------------------------- Southern Division-North Southern Division-South The schedule was set up such that the N-N and S-S teams simply didn't meet for any interdivisional matchups, each facing only the "near" half of the other division. That leads to some unfairness in the schedule, of course - teams in the two sub-divisions on the far ends would have around 90 games within their own group, while the teams in the two central sub-divisions only get about 60 (in order to accomodate their larger interdivisional schedule). But, to bring this back to the proposed AA/NL amalgamation - given that the ultimate goal would likely be no interdivisional play whatsoever, and that the current AA schedules are already quite messy, I suspect this wouldn't be much of a difference-maker. That combined league wouldn't be clustered quite as nicely as the Sally League is, but some approximation of the above should still be possible, e.g. the Southern clubs only driving as far as St. Paul (and Pensacola perhaps not even that far), and Winnipeg/Fargo in turn only going down to, say, Wichita. Obviously a 14-team league wouldn't be ideal (whether 2x7 or 6+8...or my never-gonna-happen favourite, 6+4+4), but IMO it could be made to work relatively easily if you divorce yourself from the notion that every team has to see every other team during the season.
JohnU11	balancing a schedule	#25	[-]
Posts: 243 (15-May-08 00:22:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Curiously, baseball existed for nearly a century without leagues intermingling. There's no compelling reason that needs to happen now. The only discussion concerning any of this, as I see it, is that familiarity breeds boredom, which is more a team issue than a fan issue, when one considers the casual fan who may see only 2-3 games a year. The argument in favor of everybody playing everybody makes sense from a theoretical "fairness" doctrine, but the truth is that there is so much turnover in these rosters, does that really apply anyhow? Except for core players, the transactions list for any indy league team stretches into two pages. That aside, the other way to avoid "boredom" is to have interleague play, which is still ... if you can't play everybody, what's the issue? You're only looking at ... say, a dozen or so games. If Gary plays 4 at Lincoln, 4 at home against St. Paul and a home-home against Shreveport, it can be interesting. Interesting, but how important? I don't see the fans clamoring for a series against Shreveport. And if the Sports are 5-40 at the time, the guys in Fargo may be distressed if they're playing El Paso, which is 38-10 at the time. (Oh, well, dem's da breaks.) Any more games than that, it's not really the Northern League they're competing against, but just "another team" that counts in the regular season standings. Now, I understand Simmy's POV when he doesn't want to play Winnipeg 36 times. I get it on that level and maybe the hardcore fans are feeling the same way. All the same, the clustering of teams by geography makes sense if you look at a map and it makes sense if you want to confine play to distance as a way of reducing travel costs. To me, it's just a game between my favorite team and "whoever the other team is." I compare all this to the abomination that has become interleague play in MLB. It's a joke and the few teams who benefit from it are in Chicago and New York. Even at that, the Yanks, Mets and Cubs will sell out if the Yokahama Whales come in. The White Sox need the boost. One out of four ain't bad. But I support a merger on any level that helps indy ball to survive. The scheduling conflicts are of minor interest to me. I just want to see a ball game at a nice ball park, one that is clean, safe and representative of well-managed professional baseball. I pay 10 to 15 bucks for that. Bring on the Whales!
HorseRaider		#26	[-]
Posts: 216 (15-May-08 04:38:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The point about a league reaching a point of having 12 or 14 teams in a couple of divisions and then having NO inter division play has been said before on here and still makes no sense to me. Why call it a single entity and then have no interdivision play? You would be right where you are in the NL is at this time, playing the same teams 16-20 times a year in your division. Then the only time any interdivision play would come about is in the "league championship series". Why bother to call it one league when it really wouldn't be ONE league. There's a reason that you have teams in a league, because they play each other during the regular season. Goes from pee wee league all the way to MLB. Period. The American and National leagues are seperate leagues and interleague play does nothing for me there. Fans look forward to seeing teams from the other division coming to town that one time a season in the AA. I can tell you that for sure. Sure, there's the old "I don't care what name is on the jersey, I just come for the baseball" diehards out there, but there's just as many Simunics and fans out there that don't want to play the same teams a bajillion times in one season if you have more than enough teams to cut down on so many games vs each other. Travel costs are probably going to change that train of thought somewhat in the bigger leagues with more games vs. the teams closest to where you are, but still, some form of interdivision play is needed. If the AA or any 12 or 14 team eliminated regular season interdivision play, it would be a be a complete sham. Might as well just call the South the American Association and rename the North division the new Northern League and be done with it. Last Edited By: HorseRaider 15-May-08 04:45:03. Edited 1 times.
JohnU11		#27	[-]
Posts: 244 (15-May-08 04:49:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	btw, horseraider, I saw on your other post that you have a sister here in Valpo.
beerbarons		#28	[-]
Posts: 110 (15-May-08 10:42:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	kckman, The golden League was what I was thinking too for Winnipeg and Fargo. It may be a tough one, but would it work?
kckman		#29	[-]
Posts: 172 (15-May-08 12:22:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	>>The golden League was what I was thinking too for Winnipeg and Fargo. >>It may be a tough one, but would it work? Doubtful. The GBL is stretching itself to take in the Alberta teams (Mountain Time Zone), and F-M and Winnipeg are another time zone after that. It seems that the ugly stepchildren of indy ball (in terms of isolation from and average distance from other teams in the event of expansion/merger) are Winnipeg, Fargo, and Pensacola. And possibly El Paso They're not that far from other towns (Fargo is a shorter drive for St. Paul than Sioux Falls is, and Pensacola's not all that far from Shreveport), but it's when you have to fit them into the travel plans of the remaining teams that they turn ugly. Of course, El Paso and Pensacola are over 1,200 miles apart and in the same division now, so that's pretty ugly as is. KC to Winnipeg is just over 800. It's not likely to happen because of the FL courting the NL's Chicago teams (or is it the other way around?), but my "sweet sixteen" layout for the full AA/NL merger would be nice, although I'd prefer that the AA simply absorbed the NL, which would leave the AA laws (strong commissioner) in place.
JohnU11		#30	[-]
Posts: 248 (16-May-08 13:20:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Again, stretching the geography tends to hurt the team in still another way because it forces them to be on the road too long. Two to three weeks away from home is a long time. A 1,200 mile trip almost means having to play your way back home, which is about 20 games on the road in a row. That doesn't exactly do wonders for a team's record if the home field is worth anything at all. By the end of that 20th game, I should think the players would be pretty well toasted. Also, 2-3 weeks away from home is a nightmare for marketing the home team. Losing two weekends means losing a lot of fans, some of whom might just decide to do something else for the duration of the summer.
caretaker110		#31	[-]
Posts: 226 (21-May-08 11:31:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	RE Simmerin Simmy I just want to say I truly believed that what Simmy said had to be said. Doug was saying it for us in The Northern League. I think he also was saying it for the AA League. If you's think you are without your problems then you are in denial, I know its early in the season but the attendence in the south is nothing to write home about and you lost teams last year also If its true that Simmy took a hit of 10 to 20 grand then I hope that some think about passing the hat and deminstrate to Doug that we appriciate him saying it as it is I also think the Northern League disbelievers should buy tickets to the alstar dinner and listen to all the good news as it is anouced Last Edited By: caretaker110 21-May-08 12:06:31. Edited 1 times.
nlfan	Give me a break...	#32	[-]
Posts: 5702 (21-May-08 11:56:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I don't think Simmy was talking about the AA, it was to the NoL owners. Most all the biting comments were about how the league has shrunk and how few opponents there are. He was using the media to voice the same things fans have said here. If he was saying any thing to the AA it was to try getting them interested in playing NoL clubs (again). As for the AA... there's NO denial. This sounds like the classic line from Winnipeggers who just don't understand why other clubs can't get 5K people to show up at a moment's notice and I don't see why you chose to bring this up. But let's kill of the "denial" and look at the facts at the moment. Yes, the AA lost two clubs and some clubs still aren't drawing well -- but everyone in all leagues are affected by a lot of the same causes: recession, cold weather, and early start to the season with school still in session. The same is true for the few games played by the NoL. If you use the few numbers so far (5 games in only 3 cities) only Winnipeg is drawing over 2,500. Gary and Schaumburg attendance to date is only ahead of Pensacola, Shreveport and Sioux City (which are in that order at the bottom in AA attendance. Lowly Sioux Falls is already averaging 2,900. And I know I've sat through many underwhelming crowds for the Saints (which only had 3,542 and currently average only 4,428) but have few doubts that that number will move up to 5K before the season's over. As for the new clubs... Guess what? Wichita is currently outdrawing Winnipeg 5,955 to 5,535. This in a community which had half that attendance last season with a lame duck affiliated club. I won't claim that will last, but it's interesting that a new AA club could outdo the Goldeyes so early in the season. None of this really matters. We'll see where the attendance numbers are when the season's over. As for the future, Pensacola is still getting a new ballpark by 2010. That promises to do a lot for attendance and suggests more stability for a "troubled" club. Shreveport signed a new lease. And we'll see how things go in Sioux City. Topeka may join the league in 2010 --if they finally build a ballpark. Given that the AA has always biased its schedule to reduce the long distance trips for the "lesser" clubs. No one claims the AA is perfect, but there's little point in claiming anyone's in denial or extending the NoL's problems or Simi's assessment beyond what he said.
beerbarons		#33	[-]
Posts: 111 (21-May-08 22:10:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Wichita is currently outdrawing Winnipeg 5,955 to 5,535 because it is still kinda cold here in Canada as the snow recently melted. As it continues to warm up, so will the attendance increase in Winnipeg.
nlfan		#34	[-]
Posts: 5704 (21-May-08 22:43:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	...and "the cold" was one of my points. It, along with school and the (US) economy, are impacting the early attendance figures. Only at the end of the season with the final attendance figures are in will we know how well all clubs (and leagues) are doing.
General Manager		#35	[-]
Posts: 46 (22-May-08 02:28:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	nlfan wrote: Only at the end of the season with the final attendance figures are in will we know how well all clubs (and leagues) are doing. Here's another issue that keeps coming back. People jumping the gun making proclaimations with attendance figures a few weeks into the season. NLFan, maybe you should make a "rubberstamp" reply for this one and save yourself the time it takes to explain it year after year.
nlfan		#36	[-]
Posts: 5711 (22-May-08 03:27:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Believe me, this is one of several perennial issues for which I need a standards FAQ explanation. ...meanwhile... back to Simi's comments. I understand that the radio interview was more pointed than the print version. A search on his name in the FreeP turns up the main article and some interesting "fish hooks" from "Lawless." Buck up, buddy boy (...) The league's six owners held a conference call on Tuesday night and discussed Simunic's comments and subsequent discipline. The league has yet to levy a fine, but it's expected to be in the $5,000 to $10,000 range. Simunic issued a brisk "no comment" when reached on Thursday. So it's the owners agreeing to levy a fine to censure Simi. Somehow I think he'll have some sort of comment about that too.. eventually. The mini-rant The Northern League has painted itself into a very small corner with mismanagement at the boardroom level and Simunic, who has been in the league since its return to action in 1993 -- making him the elder statesmen of the loop -- allowed his passion to get the best of him last week. The league has neutered the commissioner's office and Clark Griffith is little more than a salesman looking for expansion markets. Griffith is an experienced baseball man and capable of more, but the owners, who have stewarded their way from 12 teams to six in the last couple of years and stumbled in the expansion department, deem themselves more competent in league matters. Simunic shouldn't have said as much as he did, but the league's reaction is heavy-handed and smacks of "the truth hurts." I understand that on the radio Simi's comments were sharper. Can someone (who actually heard it) confirm that he called Clark "useless" and the owners "clueless?" "Lawless'" comments aren't all that different, though a bit less controversial. With the NoL 0 for 3 on recent expansion (Marion, Wichita & Normal) it's clear that something's going to have to change because the NoL doesn't seem to have what it takes to compete in today's "expansion market."
JohnU11		#37	[-]
Posts: 268 (22-May-08 22:30:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What precise strategy could Griffith embrace that would simplify the process for adding teams? As I see it from my corner, he goes to potential owners/groups in potential cities and asks if they want baseball. If they say yes, he has a model to offer. If they reject that model, it isn't that he promised baseball and delivered soccer. But I get the impression that the 6 owners (including the new one in Gary) are all in the corner off to themselves making up rules that Griffith can't possibly get anyone outside the NoL to agree to follow. The league wants top ballparks in fairly "urban" areas ... seems like a fair set of ground rules. Cheapening the NoL just so it can grow doesn't really improve the product, just "adds" teams the schedule, which I guess is a good way for us to bolster our ball-cap collections. Not to beat a dead horse, but it seems like expansion is going to have to be redefined.
nlfan	FL Expansion Impacts	#38	[-]
Posts: 5718 (22-May-08 23:04:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think you hit the nail on the head... though I don't know any real details of the NoL proposal, it probably was "as good as they could offer." And what they have revealed --that four existing owners (including Mayor Sam) were the ownership group-- does not bode well for "real expansion." Until now all expansion has been with NEW owners willing to pay to join --which is what they presented in Wichita. Maxing out the FL and its impacts A long-view solution is for the NoL to wait until the FL (and AA?) expand to 16 (solid) teams and won't (shouldn't) expand further (which I believe is the target for both the FL and AA). The FL is at 12, Normal and continuing efforts in the Chicago area should get them to 14 barring any contraction or shelving of franchises. Two more and the FL is "maxed out" and would stop, or significantly curtail, and activities for new locations. If so, the NoL might have no competition for new locations near(er) the Chicago area since the AA has proven it's lack of interest in IL for expansion. Another interesting aspect of the FL expanding to 14 is that, short of going beyond 16 clubs, it would not be able (or as willing) to take on all 3 Chicago NoL clubs. If there's anything left to the "(actual) rumor that refused to die," the options for the Chicago clubs become more limited. If the AA isn't interested in them and the FL can't/won't take them they may no other option but to stay in the NoL. If any Chicago owners still harbor any idea of an exit strategy, they may hope that Normal goes forward and the FL Chicago effort fails putting the FL in need of a 14th (or 14th, 15th and16th) franchise. Between the AA's disinterest in interleague play, the inability to (meaningfully) play interleague with the FL there are surprisingly few options for the NoL. We may be frozen at six for some time unless someone/something breaks the ice jam.
JohnU11		#39	[-]
Posts: 269 (23-May-08 00:36:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I still think a Road Warriors team is a useful emergency concept provided that team could "camp out" at one of the existing ballparks, paying only rent and traditional service fees. You could call it the "Suburban Vagabonds" based in ... oh, say ... Schaumberg or Gary. The league could own the team if necessary and see if somebody is willing to buy it. Why it works is to make use of the ballpark every night of the season. Downside is asking two sets of fans to fill up the park, so the marketing would have to occur somewhere else in all likelihood. Again, only in an emergency. At what point does a team pass the deadline for "dropping out" of a league? If the RailCats wanted to go to the FL, and said so ... say, on the 16th of August, that would surely create a panic. Can they do that, alleging they wanted to? But I see some evidence the FL and the NoL are beginning to flirt with each other a little more. Not sure if they are past the winkin' stage, moving on to kissy face-huggy bear.
nlfan		#40	[-]
Posts: 5720 (23-May-08 01:04:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Having lived through this in 2002 with the "Stray (Rail)Cats" there are no "second set of fans" or double-booking (camping out) at an existing ballpark. That simply doesn't work. There's no way to create or market to a (nonexistent) fan base. It would require adding front office staff to market a "full season" of games. That's why they have that club travel all over and occasionally play as the home team. The local fans get extra games with each club selling and marketing a couple extra (pseudo-)homestands. The costs (and potential benefits) are spread across the league equally (depending on the schedule) with minimal front office overhead. Road warriors can work out... but their operating costs are born by the league. To do it you must get all the owners willing to put up the additional money to cover salaries, transportation, support staff, and equipment. The (overwhelming) tendency of NoL is to avoid spending anything more than absolutely necessary to the league itself or to other (struggling) clubs (as was part of the AB debacle). They may be willing to do that if they lined up a strong 7th franchise but only with a guaranteed 8th waiting in the wings (such as one with approved new ballpark construction and owner). As for dropping out... no one can ever "defect" during the season for another league. They could never be absorbed into that other league's schedule. It also usually does huge damage to the club's customer base. If they "drop out" during a season it's because they're completely out of money and credit --and go out of business. About all they may do is complain loudly that they might do it during the season (as with the AB clubs) or do it after the end of the season (as with the AA clubs). The FL and NoL are, and have been talking. Having spent a great time talking with Bill Lee at the 2006 NoL ASG, it's clear the NoL isn't as isolated as it once was. What, if anything, comes from their IPBF remains to be seen since there would have to be changes between the leagues for them to do more than exhibition games. On that count it'll be the NoL who'd have to do the changing since the FL is doing better than nearly any other indy league right now.

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