Vipers and Cracker-Cats out of Northern League

Author	Comment
MJHankel		#61	[-]
Posts: 143 (24-Oct-07 10:02:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	nlfan wrote: Now it's "really" official, for Calgary at least, given this GBL press release yesterday: Golden Baseball League Expands to Calgary I have a a bit of confusion from this article: The Vipers are one of the premier franchisees in all independent baseball. For the past three seasons, they have competed at the top of the standings in the Northern League losing this last season in the final game of the Championship series to the Gary Rail Cats. The team features Baseball America's Player of the Year in Darryl Brinkley who led all professional baseball in 2008 in posting a .400 batting average. The team plays at 6500 capacity Foothill Stadium and regularly fills the stadium with a passionate fan base. A. one of the premier franchises? B. regularly fills the stadium?
Doc Halladay		#62	[-]
Posts: 630 (24-Oct-07 11:07:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	rpt319 wrote: Doc Halladay wrote: nlfan wrote: Well... in all of this one wonders how much due diligence has been done. Yes GBL expenses might be lower and centralized, but are there any truly good western CA markets with good facilities (or ones that can be upgraded inexpensively)? For the level of the GBL? Medicine Hat and Lethbridge are both former Pioneer League markets, both with decent enough ballparks that could seat the 3000 or so that the GBL. I'm not sure about Kelowna, but they were a member of the CBL, and have a college summer team. Kamloops obviously has a shot, given they are specifically mentioned. Saskatoon or Regina maybe, probably with upgrades though. Was Kelowna the CBL team that had to use a portable mound on a fastball field or was that Victoria? The Calgary release had a mention of the targeted expansion: Kaval pointed out that the Golden League vision is for two to four more Canadian franchises in the next two years. Victoria, Surrey, Kelowna and Kamloops, British Columbia and Saskatoon and Regina, Saskatchewan are the cities being targeted by the league. I would guess that the CBL city that used the portable mound would be out and both Kamloops and Kelowna wouldn't both get teams. So I'm putting my money on Surrey and Victoria and Saskatoon and Regina as the 4 teams to be added in the next two years. I wonder if the next two years means this winter and next winter or next winter and 2009? It was Victoria that used the portable mound, but at the same time, they averaged almost 2000 fans per game for Tony Riviera's nonsense. Put a few dollars into a proper conversion to a ballpark, and you might have a team. Really, the Canadian expansion has three options, with two cities each in a block: Victoria and Surrey, Kamloops and Kelowna or Saskatoon and Regina. Due to travel, there really is no option but to pair these markets up. And yeah, that press release was funny. The part about the respected management in Calgary caught my attention as well.
rpt319		#63	[-]
Posts: 45 (24-Oct-07 16:59:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Golden loop makes welcome official Vipers owner plans to sue Northern League Jeff Gidney is ready to take his Calgary Vipers to baseball's Golden League next season, but he still has some unfinished business with the league he left behind. The Vipers owner made it official at a news conference Tuesday, saying the Vipers have shifted to a new independent pro league after losing the Northern League final to the Gary-SouthShore Railcats last month. Gidney also said he'll be filing a lawsuit against the Northern League to recover the $800,000 US franchise fee he paid in 2005 to join the league. ... Gidney said the Northern League made it clear through various off-season manoeuvres, such as demanding a high-six-figure performance bond and a proposed schedule that featured Calgary and Edmonton meeting 32 times in a 96-game schedule, that the Alberta teams weren't welcome. "Why they did that to us, I don't know," said Gidney. "Now they're paying for it. They picked on the wrong guy." Gidney expects no such issues with the three-year-old Golden League, which with the addition of Calgary and Edmonton expands to eight teams, with two more Canadian entries possible within two months. Golden League officials are expected to meet with officials in Kamloops, B.C., and Saskatoon later this week to discuss further expansion. ... "I think the key thing for us is partnering with a group of people like Jeff and (Vipers president) Peter (Young) has just been a pleasure," said Dave Kaval, the CEO and co-founder of the Golden League. "I think they saw in their old league a lot of the things that you don't want to do. I think working together, we share a lot of the same philosophies: let's be flexible, let's understand that we're a growing organization, and that we need to do things together to make things better. "We're going into this as a partnership, and everybody is excited about it because of that." ... That's a contrast to the Northern League, which has six owners and, suggested Gidney, six separate agendas -- a big reason why he believes the league isn't long for the world. "I would say it's done," he said. "You look at this league (Golden) -- four of the six teams are owned by a consortium of very successful businessmen, and they're not going to let this go down." Golden loop makes welcome official It looks like the GBL wants to rush expansion into Saskatoon and Kamloops for next year. As it says they are meeting with officials later this week to discuss expansion. So it looks like that's where the league office has settled on for expansion in Western Canada. nlfan: Trimmed article quoting to essentials Last Edited By: nlfan 24-Oct-07 22:06:28. Edited 2 times.
coach		#64	[-]
Posts: 321 (24-Oct-07 20:04:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Lets play ball, it is time to move on to bigger and better things!!!!! Coach
nlfan	And so there IS a lawsuit.	#65	[-]
Posts: 5346 (24-Oct-07 22:03:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Uh... coach... you were kind of wrong on the lawsuit weren't you? (other than the AB clubs would be the ones to do it). Gidney also said he'll be filing a lawsuit against the Northern League to recover the $800,000 US franchise fee he paid in 2005 to join the league. That's all the NoL needed, a(nother) lawsuit. I guess all the posturing about when the AB clubs actually started talking switching leagues will matter now. As for playing baseball, the Vipers, C-Cats and the GBL are want to play baseball but they've decided the courts are where they can get back some money and/or respect from the NoL Thanks for the story link -but please don't post entire articles. It's a copyright violation. Please stick to the key quotes. In most articles it's easy to skip sections about league background and other trivia already discussed in these forums. Last Edited By: nlfan 24-Oct-07 22:13:02. Edited 3 times.
Zeyes		#66	[-]
Posts: 20 (24-Oct-07 22:58:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Apparently nobody told Gidney that those very successful businessmen also "own" a number of failed franchises in the GBL and are actively shopping around the existing four. If he thinks too many different owners are a problem per se, he's in for a surprise with the GBL in a few years (assuming they manage to make it that far). Not to mention that half the clubs being owned by the league doesn't exactly put Calgary and Edmonton in a better voting position than they had in the NoL if they ever find themselves at odds with the rest of the league. And what's with the "Now they're paying for it. They picked on the wrong guy." stuff? Ballclub management by schoolyard taunt?
nlfan		#67	[-]
Posts: 5347 (25-Oct-07 00:52:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Given all the comments about attendance, team and league strength, everyone's BS detectors should be on high.
indyfan101		#68	[-]
Posts: 14 (25-Oct-07 01:22:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	OK lets think about things for a minute. The ONLY independent league that started with half of their existing franchises still in the league is the Atlantic. The other leagues all have had some (a lot) of turmoil to get to stability. Can-am (three name changes one franchise that dates back to the 1900's. The ever-loved frontier league lost 2 teams in the middle of the season in 1993, and only ONE count em one.... from the originals is still completely in tact. That good ole northern league even before it was losing teams hand over foot... was a shell of its original self. SO, before you BURY the golden league REMEMBER it is an infant. Leagues that can survive three years have a shot to be around for a decent amount of time, and it seems to me they have an idea of where they want to be. Four-team north and a four team south. Remember RENO will be going away. As i've said before the alberta teams probably keep the league from being in danger of folding after next season, and adding Canada will help other canadain teams and a popssibly oregon or washington sight as well. Once the GBL figures that it needs to get out of arizona and utah.. they should be ok An 8 team loop with four south and four north would be ideal. A team from the south could concievably play all four north teams in one roadtrip. This would lessen the cost of travel and mean a team would take ONE plane up and could bus the rest... then a plane back. That would be much more cost effective. If the leage expands to 10 teams there could be a problem. B/c one southern team would have to be in the north or vice versa at all times (see AA). That being said longer homestands are usually not great for fans, but they would be a way to help keep costs down, as would be playing four game series. If the GBL does this right they could be around for a long time. But during that time don't hate the league b/c teams move and ownership shifts. It's a natural progression.
Ray Sipsa	Northern League Website	#69	[-]
Posts: 303 (25-Oct-07 03:02:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The logos of Edmonton and Calgary and now gone from the Northern League Website. But no story or explanation as to the departure. Unless I missed it. I think, at this point, the days of the Northern League are numbered. Who is going to buy a franchise when you see all of these teams bailing? Sad. Very sad.
nlfan		#70	[-]
Posts: 5350 (25-Oct-07 04:49:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	They're unlikely to put up much of a press release about the departure of the AB clubs. For those waiting for the second shoe to drop, the C-Cats put out their official press release today: Edmonton Cracker-Cats join Golden Baseball League. As noted elsewhere, the 2008 NoL schedule is out as part of the way to erase the memory of the AB clubs.
GBL4AV		#71	[-]
Posts: 13 (25-Oct-07 05:18:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Doc Halladay wrote: rpt319 wrote: Doc Halladay wrote: nlfan wrote: Well... in all of this one wonders how much due diligence has been done. Yes GBL expenses might be lower and centralized, but are there any truly good western CA markets with good facilities (or ones that can be upgraded inexpensively)? For the level of the GBL? Medicine Hat and Lethbridge are both former Pioneer League markets, both with decent enough ballparks that could seat the 3000 or so that the GBL. I'm not sure about Kelowna, but they were a member of the CBL, and have a college summer team. Kamloops obviously has a shot, given they are specifically mentioned. Saskatoon or Regina maybe, probably with upgrades though. Was Kelowna the CBL team that had to use a portable mound on a fastball field or was that Victoria? The Calgary release had a mention of the targeted expansion: Kaval pointed out that the Golden League vision is for two to four more Canadian franchises in the next two years. Victoria, Surrey, Kelowna and Kamloops, British Columbia and Saskatoon and Regina, Saskatchewan are the cities being targeted by the league. I would guess that the CBL city that used the portable mound would be out and both Kamloops and Kelowna wouldn't both get teams. So I'm putting my money on Surrey and Victoria and Saskatoon and Regina as the 4 teams to be added in the next two years. I wonder if the next two years means this winter and next winter or next winter and 2009? It was Victoria that used the portable mound, but at the same time, they averaged almost 2000 fans per game for Tony Riviera's nonsense. Put a few dollars into a proper conversion to a ballpark, and you might have a team. Really, the Canadian expansion has three options, with two cities each in a block: Victoria and Surrey, Kamloops and Kelowna or Saskatoon and Regina. Due to travel, there really is no option but to pair these markets up. And yeah, that press release was funny. The part about the respected management in Calgary caught my attention as well. I highly doubt that the GBL will put 4 more teams in Canada. They won't be a Canada-exclusive league, no matter how much you so please. The GBL was originally created as a Cali-Zona league (if you know what Cali-Zona means). Then, Mesa, Surprise, and their travel team collapsed, and Reno came about as a team. In 2007, San Diego collapsed, and St. George (Utah) was brought in. 4 of the teams have something in common: They are all in a valley or desert (OC and LB the exception. Chico is in the Central Valley, Reno in Nevada Desert, and Yuma and St. George in Mojave Desert). Now, you guys are really carrying the Canadian expansion WAY too far. Just because Calgary and Edmonton made the GBL does NOT mean Surrey, Regina, Victoria, Kamloops, Kelowna, or any other of those B-list Canada cities will make it. (However, I happen to think Medicine Hat is possible.) In order for ANY more Canada expansion to be possible, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, and maybe even Idaho will need targeting. This way, Edmonton and Chico won't be in a 800-mile span AND in the same division without a couple more USA teams in between them. In my opinion, this is going to be the GBL of 2009: Golden Baseball League GBL NORTH Edmonton Calgary Medicine Hat---------EXPANSION Olympia (Washington)--------EXPANSION GBL SOUTH Orange County Long Beach Yuma Apple Valley (California) (big hidden GBL target)-------EXPANSION GBL CENTRAL Medford (Oregon)-------EXPANSION Chico Reno St. George There you have it, from me. 2009 Golden Baseball League. The REALISTIC one.
Eddie CCPBA		#72	[-]
Posts: 107 (25-Oct-07 06:54:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Just want to point out one thing. You're knocking someone else's comment and then saying yours is the "realistic" expansion. If it's so realistic then why would you include Reno? Can you really see Reno surviving when the AAA team is in place? They'd end up like Robstown/Corpus Christi. Kamloops and Saskatoon probably have a strong chance of being part of the expansion. I could see them adding 2 Canadian cities and I could see them doing it this year even. Will it happen? Don't know if it will. But it is possible. Would give a Canadian division with the possibility of expanding in the middle...Washington, Idaho, etc. ______________________________ "Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we would all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music." - Kristian Wilson, Nintendo Last Edited By: Eddie CCPBA 25-Oct-07 06:58:54. Edited 1 times.
rpt319		#73	[-]
Posts: 46 (25-Oct-07 07:01:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	GBL4AV wrote: I highly doubt that the GBL will put 4 more teams in Canada. They won't be a Canada-exclusive league, no matter how much you so please. The GBL was originally created as a Cali-Zona league (if you know what Cali-Zona means). Then, Mesa, Surprise, and their travel team collapsed, and Reno came about as a team. In 2007, San Diego collapsed, and St. George (Utah) was brought in. 4 of the teams have something in common: They are all in a valley or desert (OC and LB the exception. Chico is in the Central Valley, Reno in Nevada Desert, and Yuma and St. George in Mojave Desert). Now, you guys are really carrying the Canadian expansion WAY too far. Just because Calgary and Edmonton made the GBL does NOT mean Surrey, Regina, Victoria, Kamloops, Kelowna, or any other of those B-list Canada cities will make it. (However, I happen to think Medicine Hat is possible.) In order for ANY more Canada expansion to be possible, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, and maybe even Idaho will need targeting. This way, Edmonton and Chico won't be in a 800-mile span AND in the same division without a couple more USA teams in between them. In my opinion, this is going to be the GBL of 2009: Golden Baseball League GBL NORTH Edmonton Calgary Medicine Hat---------EXPANSION Olympia (Washington)--------EXPANSION GBL SOUTH Orange County Long Beach Yuma Apple Valley (California) (big hidden GBL target)-------EXPANSION GBL CENTRAL Medford (Oregon)-------EXPANSION Chico Reno St. George There you have it, from me. 2009 Golden Baseball League. The REALISTIC one. Well I think you missed the quote from the league in today's Calgary Herald article. It says that league officials will be meeting with City officials in Kamloops and Saskatoon later this week. So its more likely they will be added. I fail to understand why you think Medicine Hat is a likely candidate when much larger cities are supposedly "b list." If any of the former Alberta Pioneer League cities would make it in it would be Lethbridge as they have a relatively new ballpark at the Prairie Baseball Academy. Seems to me the park was built in 1995, whereas the one in Medicine Hat was built much, much earlier. I think it may be a pre-WW II ballpark, that received some renos in the 1980's. I don't doubt you know the American teams though, but I have a feeling you are selling the Canadian cities short.
indyfan101	UHHHH	#74	[-]
Posts: 15 (25-Oct-07 14:40:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Reno, St george and Yuma are not realistic in 2009 based on your expansion. The League will NOT have three 4-team divisions. The GBL if it expands will need to weed out the embarassing weak links. They have ONE viable long-term franchise NOW. St. George, yuma, Long Beach.. these are DEAD markets (see St Joe and Coastal Bend). they can't be LONG term. The future of the league is in canada and the great NW. If not the GBL will be the next dead indy league That is unless they want to lie and say they make money adding a one to their attendance figures.
Zeyes		#75	[-]
Posts: 21 (26-Oct-07 13:49:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	indyfan101 wrote: SO before you BURY the golden league REMEMBER it is an infant. Leagues that can survive three years have a shot to be around for a decent amount of time, and it seems to me they have an idea of where they want to be. The problem is that "where they want to be" seems to be ever-elusive and prone to change each year. From wanting to build a strong Cali foundation to seeking their fortunes in expansion plans to UT and NM to now looking at Canada as their latest saviour, they've been all over the map (literally) in their public pronouncements. Granted, that's also true for many other leagues given enough time, but it's still remarkable to see all those different plans in just three years. And that pales compared to the original hype from within the league...what was it, "20-24 teams by 2011" or something like that? Heck, they were talking about going national within 10 years or so (with some sort of "association of semi-independent GBLs" idea, IIRC). I really should have saved those early interviews with the founders... Speaking of the founders, the two of them are really the biggest reason I remain skeptical about the GBL. Nearly every time I see a quote from them, they come across as a bunch of idea men who can come up with sparkling new plans at the drop of a dime, but despite (or maybe because of?) all those plans, everything seems to end up half-baked. The Frontier League or the AA obviously have long-term plans (which still doesn't prevent the occasional setback of course, e.g. Coastal Bend); I'm not so sure the GBL does, or that they'd be capable of implementing them if they do have them. That being said, I don't have anything against the GBL, or any indy league really. I'm just an interested observer of the indy baseball landscape and I'd love for it to be as strong as possible. If the GBL-Alberta partnership ends up working out, good for them. Last Edited By: Zeyes 26-Oct-07 13:52:40. Edited 1 times.
coach	GBL....	#76	[-]
Posts: 322 (26-Oct-07 19:58:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	There will be no Saskatchewan teams in the GBL, maybe in British Columbia, but Saskatchewan is far fetched!!! Coach
Eddie CCPBA		#77	[-]
Posts: 108 (26-Oct-07 21:31:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	indyfan101 wrote: Reno, St george and Yuma are not realistic in 2009 based on your expansion. The League will NOT have three 4-team divisions. The GBL if it expands will need to weed out the embarassing weak links. They have ONE viable long-term franchise NOW. St. George, yuma, Long Beach.. these are DEAD markets (see St Joe and Coastal Bend). they can't be LONG term. The future of the league is in canada and the great NW. If not the GBL will be the next dead indy league That is unless they want to lie and say they make money adding a one to their attendance figures. The reason Coastal Bend had issues is Corpus Christi. If there was no team in Corpus than Coastal Bend/Robstown would have had a better chance. Check the numbers before and after CC arrived and you'll see there was a market and interest but when MiLB sets up right where you are, it causes those type of problems. ______________________________ "Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we would all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music." - Kristian Wilson, Nintendo
General Manager		#78	[-]
Posts: 30 (26-Oct-07 22:58:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Eddie CCPBA...What ever happened to your proposed independent Colonial League? General Manager
GBL4AV		#79	[-]
Posts: 14 (26-Oct-07 23:10:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Zeyes wrote: indyfan101 wrote: SO before you BURY the golden league REMEMBER it is an infant. Leagues that can survive three years have a shot to be around for a decent amount of time, and it seems to me they have an idea of where they want to be. The problem is that "where they want to be" seems to be ever-elusive and prone to change each year. From wanting to build a strong Cali foundation to seeking their fortunes in expansion plans to UT and NM to now looking at Canada as their latest saviour, they've been all over the map (literally) in their public pronouncements. Granted, that's also true for many other leagues given enough time, but it's still remarkable to see all those different plans in just three years. And that pales compared to the original hype from within the league...what was it, "20-24 teams by 2011" or something like that? Heck, they were talking about going national within 10 years or so (with some sort of "association of semi-independent GBLs" idea, IIRC). I really should have saved those early interviews with the founders... Speaking of the founders, the two of them are really the biggest reason I remain skeptical about the GBL. Nearly every time I see a quote from them, they come across as a bunch of idea men who can come up with sparkling new plans at the drop of a dime, but despite (or maybe because of?) all those plans, everything seems to end up half-baked. The Frontier League or the AA obviously have long-term plans (which still doesn't prevent the occasional setback of course, e.g. Coastal Bend); I'm not so sure the GBL does, or that they'd be capable of implementing them if they do have them. That being said, I don't have anything against the GBL, or any indy league really. I'm just an interested observer of the indy baseball landscape and I'd love for it to be as strong as possible. If the GBL-Alberta partnership ends up working out, good for them. OK, OK, hush now, children, Indyfan's right. The GBL is going into its fourth year. They have as strong standards as that of the two largest leagues in indy baseball (Frontier League and American Association). Now, like said before, the reason Coastal Bend died was because of Corpus Christi. The reason St. Joe is dying is because of the indy teams there, as well as KC and STL. And Zeyes, you're a bit behind. The GBL-Alberta partnership is complete. Calgary and Edmonton are in. And to all on this topic, I am sorry for my "South Park-Blame Canada" behavior. I do think that these cities have a hefty chance. I was just miffed at the moment because you guys sounded like the GBL should become Canada-exclusive, which, anyone with a brain in their head should know, this wouldn't happen. I can see Kamloops and Regina, possibly Medicine Hat and Saskatoon with teams in the future, maybe 2009 or 2010. But, you need to understand as well, that the difference between Chico (GBL's northernmost U.S. team) and Calgary (GBL's southernmost Canada team) is 1,337 miles (2,234 km). We would need at least 2-4 more U.S. teams between Chico and Calgary (which, the GBL has before stated that Medford, OR; Olympia, WA; and Pocatello, ID are all potential expansions for north, and a Bay Area team is set for 2009, though we are unbekownst as to where. Their south candidates rank many, but the tops are Apple Valley, CA; Chula Vista, CA; and a revival of Mesa, AZ.). Thanks guys!
GBL4AV		#80	[-]
Posts: 15 (27-Oct-07 01:08:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I meant Riverside, CA; not Chula Vista.

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